Stacey Abrams Has Some Ideas on How to Stop Elon Musk and the Far Right in Georgia

It’s the election homestretch, and today on the show, we spoke with Stacey Abrams. Abrams has fought voter suppression for more than a decade—and she’s still fighting it. She joins Leah from Kamala Harris’ campaign trail to talk about election conspiracies, Elon Musk's influence, ballot box fires, Joe Rogan, and whether a Democratic candidate can win Georgia.

Leah Feiger is @LeahFeiger. Write to us at politicslab@WIRED.com. Be sure to subscribe to the WIRED Politics Lab newsletter here.

Mentioned this week:
US Intel Says Insider Threats Are ‘Likely’ During the Election by Tess Owen and Dell Cameron
Election Fraud Conspiracy Theories Are Already Thriving Online by David Gilbert
Russian Propaganda Unit Appears to Be Behind Spread of False Tim Walz Sexual Abuse Claims by David Gilbert
Elon Musk’s PAC Is Buying Ads for Donald Trump on Elon Musk’s X by Vittoria Elliott

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

Leah Feiger: On Tuesday night, Kamala Harris gave one of her last speeches of the campaign.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: One week from today, you will have the chance to make a decision that directly impacts your life, the life of your family, and the future of this country we love.

Leah Feiger: She's spoken nearly the same spot where, four years ago, Donald Trump held his rally on January 6th.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: We know who Donald Trump is. He is the person who stood at this very spot nearly four years ago, and sent an armed mob to the United States Capitol to overturn the will of the people in a free and fair election.

Leah Feiger: It was a vivid reminder of what can happen when disinformation, conspiracy theories, and far-right extremism spread unchecked. As we've talked about on this show and in our reporting, those problems have only grown in the four years since the Capitol riot. This is WIRED Politics Lab, a show about how tech is changing politics. I'm Leah Feiger, the senior politics editor at WIRED. It is our last show before the election. The race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump is truly a toss-up with seven states seemingly in play, including Georgia, which is why we wanted to talk to former state representative and gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams. For more than a decade, Abrams has been pivotal to increasing voter turnout in Georgia. Her efforts helped turn Georgia into a toss-up state that went blue in 2020. Since then, Abrams has continued calling out efforts to suppress voter participation in Georgia and beyond. Abrams has been on the campaign trail to support Kamala Harris for president. She's joining us to talk about election conspiracies, voter suppression, Elon Musk's influence, ballot box fires, Joe Rogan, and whether a democratic candidate can win Georgia. Stacey Abrams, welcome to WIRED Politics Lab. Thank you so much for coming on.

Stacey Abrams: Thank you for having me.

Leah Feiger: Let's jump right in. We're talking on Wednesday morning, and the race feels very much in flux. Kamala Harris gave her big closing speech on Tuesday to a huge crowd in D.C. Trump had his big rally at Madison Square Garden in New York.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Our country will be bigger, better, bolder, richer, safer, and stronger than ever before.

Leah Feiger: As we head into this final stretch, what is keeping you up at night?

Stacey Abrams: Well, just making certain that people believe that it's worth being heard. Voter engagement is less and less about the names on the ballot, and more about who believes they deserve to be in the booth. By that, I mean you've got populations that have not seen the change that they've desired over many years that cuts across multiple administrations, or they've heard too much misinformation or disinformation that disquiets their sense that they can contribute. So, I think the most important job is to remind every single American citizen that participation in our democracy is how we force the hand of elected officials to deliver what we need, and that by sitting out, we are giving them permission to continue not doing what we need to have done. That means not just at the top of the ticket but all the way down.

Leah Feiger: Right. I guess that means not just making the generic case for democracy, but more what can democracy do for you.

Stacey Abrams: But I think that is the generic case for democracy.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: We have democracy. I appreciate you having me on. My podcast, Assembly Required, I was in conversation recently with Kavitha Surana, who is the ProPublica reporter who broke the story of the women who died in Georgia. I use that example, because they died because their reproductive freedom was stripped away by an elected official, by a group of elected officials. Their ability to make decisions about their lives was directly connected to democracy. Who got elected determined whether they had rights. So, I think the generic democracy conversation has to get back to the fundamental truth that our rights are directly connected to who gets elected, and that is determined by democracy and by voting.

Leah Feiger: I suppose as well how your elected officials are even talking about you, and talking about the electorate that they're supposedly trying to represent. Obviously, the entire country is basically a buzz with the comedian Tony Hinchcliffe's racist joke about Puerto Rico at Trump's Madison Square Garden rally.

Tony Hinchcliff [Archival audio]: I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. I think it's called Puerto Rico.

Leah Feiger: That's dominated the news cycle. There was a lot of racism and sexism throughout that entire rally, not just from Hinchcliffe, although obviously that one in particular grabbed the cycle. Why do you think that comment has been seized on by everyone? What does that say about where the campaigns are right now?

Stacey Abrams: We have become immune to outrage about the racism and xenophobia and invective that comes directly from Trump. I think what was so shocking was his willingness to platform a relative unknown and give him permission to attack and to explicitly demean an entire community of voters that 20 minutes later, they would say they need to have turnout. They have this, I think, comical ad that they're running that seems to try to clean up, no pun intended, their behavior. But, the reality is one candidate, Donald Trump, has made vengeance and anger and retribution, his raison d'etre, and Kamala Harris has spent her time trying to build community, build across conversations, having specific agendas that don't isolate, but instead show respect for the various communities, and invite them into this body politic.

Leah Feiger: Yet, Trump is polling at nearly half, which is I know very, very difficult for a lot of people that are watching this campaign, and watching these comments and racist convectives. How did we get to that point?

Stacey Abrams: I live in a region of the country where we constantly and have historically contended with this duality of the nature of voters and the duality of the nature of our community members that the same place that gave birth to the KKK gave birth to the Civil Rights movement. The same place that allows this type of incendiary behavior to go unchecked also tends to give rise and give birth to those who are so committed to fighting it. We're just seeing this play out on a national level and under a microscope that we haven't seen in many decades.

Leah Feiger: Obviously, both campaigns think that Georgia is in play. Harris held a rally with Obama and Bruce Springsteen last week.

Bruce Springsteen [Archival audio]: She's running to be the 47th President of the United States. Donald Trump is running to be an American tyrant.

Leah Feiger: She's going back on Saturday. Trump has been pushing early voting with Charlie Kirk. He had another rally this week. It's a really tight race, and I'm very interested in the kinds of information that the average voter in Georgia is getting right now. Have you encountered any misinformation or disinformation that's already shocked you?

Stacey Abrams: Well, if you turn on the television, there are X.

Leah Feiger: You're like, "Yes, everywhere. In fact, for sure."

Stacey Abrams: If you blink, you'll hear at least three new ads that provide.

Leah Feiger: Yikes.

Stacey Abrams: Look, it's the nature of campaigning that both the campaigns and IE's will try their most shocking narratives to jar you into behavior, but I think what we need to look at instead are the practical plans that are being offered. You've got Donald Trump who is touting tariffs. Well, if you are in an agricultural state, if you are in a state that relies on manufacturing, you should be terrified. He's saying he's going to raise taxes. China doesn't write a check for tariffs. Tariffs are paid by the consumers, because it is the price you pay for paying for goods that were not generated in this country. Therefore, unless he intends to completely boost in a way that we haven't seen since 1890s, the entire manufacturing operation of the United States, he's raising taxes on Americans. Whereas, Kamala Harris plans to forgive loans for 1 million small businesses to help them grow. She intends to invest in communities, to support our communities. She has a very clear plan for how she's going to have home healthcare workers take care of their families. So, you've got a very distinct contrast that's not breaking through, I think, unfortunately on the news.

Leah Feiger: Right. All of these policies are very well and good. So much of it depends on what the voters actually think these policies are.

Stacey Abrams: Exactly. The reason I give those two distinctions is that if you are in Georgia, you've got two very specific communities. You've got the growing communities of color that want to hear, "How are you going to serve needs that have been underserved in this state for decades?" You've got communities that are desperate to hear, "How are you going to revive the areas of our economy that helped us grow before agriculture manufacturing?" So, when these two narratives come into play, it's important that there be translations matrix. It says, "This is what it means, and that's not always being done."

Leah Feiger: Then when it gets to the actual voting itself and the actual election itself, obviously, there's also a ton of disinformation out there already. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene is from Georgia, and is now pushing this renewed and baseless claim that dominion voting machines are misreporting votes. We've been reporting this entire week already about how conspiracy theories on election and voter fraud have been rapidly spreading online, pushed by election denial groups, the Trump campaign, and even Russian disinfo campaigns. How are you seeing this play out in Georgia already?

Stacey Abrams: Well, we have been working to push back very hard, because, again, we are ground zero for this misinformation campaign, for this disinformation campaign. Some of it is intentional. Some of it's benign, because people weave together true problems, but build out a conspiracy theory to explain it.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, our work has to be explaining to people that voting does work, that there will be obstacles, that because of the laws passed by Brian Kemp and others, SB 202, SB 189, things have been made harder. The Sturm and Drang around the state election board, and their attempt to sow chaos created the space to then have people worry that the elections weren't going to work. So, when you suborn that kind of behavior, you create an atmosphere for the rest of crazy to make sense.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, our job is to push back and to make certain that we aren't forcing untrained workers to hand count thousands of ballots, because that would've caused confusion and errors, and undermine the confidence of Georgians. Luckily, the courts have stepped in and that stopped. But because that narrative played out for so many weeks, it created this miasma of what else aren't they telling us, or what else are they trying to do?

Leah Feiger: How do you reach people who believe this stuff, especially when the conspiracies that are going around have such intense emotional appeal? This election was stolen from you. Your representatives are hiding things from you. Obviously, these conspiracies began in the early stages of 2020, but they've organized. These election denial networks are incredibly organized right now. They have created their own social platforms, their own apps to push these and get to people. How do you counteract that?

Stacey Abrams: You have to remain vigilant. You have to keep fighting back. Organizations like Fair Fight have really been focused on the infrastructure of elections, but luckily, I've been part of building an infrastructure of C3 and other orgs that have been just out there having one-on-one conversations, answering the questions that people have about their vote, about whether their vote will work. It's also making sure that we take the positive proof points, and deconstruct it.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So for example, when people got very excited about the early voting numbers, and this lie that came out that because so many people voted, there could not be voter suppression was complete misinformation that was directly delivered by the secretary of state. What truly happened was that people shifted their voting method, because it was indeed harder to vote by mail if you were an elderly person, if you were disabled. You had the news telling you, "If you're not participating, it's your choice because everything's easier." But if you are disabled, and you now know there are fewer locations for you to get to that are easily accessible, there are fewer early voting locations because they shut them down. Drop boxes are harder to access. You are not wrong to think that your ability to vote has been heated intentionally, but you're being told that it's all in your imagination. So, the other part is for us to acknowledge the truth than in Georgia, it is harder to vote because of the decisions made by our leaders, but there are still avenues, and we're going to do what we can to help you find those avenues and get your vote cast anyway.

Leah Feiger: Right. I mean, for our lovely listeners, the last couple of years, the last seven years have been a vague blur, but in case people forgot, Trump has been accused of election interference in Georgia for calling Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and asking him to find votes, which he refused to do. But like you said, Raffensperger and Kemp have obviously been supportive of policies that can suppress voter participation. At WIRED, we've also been reporting a lot on the threats from right-wing extremists and militia groups working in unison with election denial groups to target what they believe is voter fraud. Already, ballot boxes in Oregon have been set on fire. There's been incidents around the country. Do you have any concerns about the safety of voters in Georgia right now?

Stacey Abrams: I'm not concerned about the safety of voters. I am concerned about what this attack on democracy signals. I'm concerned for our election workers who have to navigate this maelstrom of lie and invective and fear. I am hopeful that what we are seeing are isolated incidents of misdirection and people who are just, I think, deeply disturbed. Instead, we focus on how do we expand access? How do we go to our neighbors and say, "I know you want to vote early, and we only have one location. Can I give you a ride?" So, we have to, as citizens, as neighbors, take the steps necessary to help protect our friends, our family, our communities, and engage them. I don't want us to take this very heartbreaking and blatant attack on democracy, and expand it to say that nothing's going to work. Our systems are resilient. They are under attack though, and both of these things can be true. The way we hold up that resilience is by refusing to cower to the terrorism of these attacks. So, our responsibility is to have conversations like this to say, "Yes, you should believe the evidence of your eyes that things are hard, but no, you should not believe that these are impossible attempts." We can get the work done, but we have to work harder, because the progress we're fighting for, the future we're trying to build demands your participation. Without you, our resilience weakens.

Leah Feiger: We'll be right back for more with Stacey Abrams. Welcome back to WIRED Politics Lab and our conversation with Stacey Abrams. One of our big stories this week showed that U.S. intelligence agencies are concerned about "insider threats." They think that people with access to election centers could do things like give other people access, turn off security cameras, or even alter or destroy ballots. Are you worried about that at all in Georgia, and what do we do if that happens?

Stacey Abrams: I live in a state where the governor and the secretary of state supported language that expanded the ability of random individuals to attack and question a person's right to vote. It's called mass voter challenges. More than 360,000 have been filed in the states since they expanded permission, and that's part of it. So, I am always concerned that those who should be protecting our rights to vote are not willing to do it if they think it may cause them to lose an election. But, I go back to you can either be dissuaded by it, or you can be energized by it. So, I choose to be energized. I choose to say that we encourage voters who may be affected. Check online. Check the status of your ballot and of your registration. Show up. Bring people with you. We should be concerned. We should be concerned about insider attacks that are these dramatic ones like we saw with the arson attempts, but we should also be concerned about the administrative attempts that are the ones that make it harder to access the right to vote under the guise of security, because this isn't a security issue. This is an access issue. When the governor of Georgia said that he changed the laws, because he didn't like the outcome in 2020, we should believe him. We should demonstrate that we are unwilling to allow anyone inside or outside to attack and undermine our democracy, because the strength of our democracy is that no matter what obstacles we see, we continue to show up. We continue to cast our ballots, and we continue to defend the values that make our country strong.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Obviously, like we've been talking about, all of these things are happening in unison, right? These militant extremist groups and these attacks wouldn't be happening without these conspiracies, wouldn't be happening without mass voter challenges. You're an expert on this. I'd love if you could give us a bit of an explanation. How do mass voter challenges work, and how have you been seeing them work in Georgia specifically in this cycle so far?

Stacey Abrams: So, mass voter challenges occur when a single individual goes through the voter roll, makes a list, and submits that list to a county, and says, "I believe these voters are ineligible." The problem in Georgia is that prior to 2020, when those lists were drawn up, when those attacks were made, counties could generally take a look, see that there was no real reason to process these requests, and move on. Well, because there was an organization called True the Vote that did so, and they were not smacked down, but they were forestalled from being as aggressive. In 2021, Brian Kemp signed into law a plan to make it easier, and then in 2023, expanded the ease with which they could put in these challenges. So instead of putting in saying, "I don't think this guy lives next door to me anymore," you now have one person who lives in the county who comes in with 1,000 or 2,000 names, and the counters are now required to go name by name by name, and process every single one of those challenges. You do not have to have a valid reason for the challenge other than, Eh, I don't think they can." It is then incumbent on the voter to prove they have the right to participate. If you work two shifts-

Leah Feiger: That's such an extra challenge.

Stacey Abrams: Exactly. Let's assume you are a mom of six. Let's say a mom of three, who works an hour away. You get home, and there's this ominous letter in your mail saying, "You got to come and prove that you have the right to vote." The time you have to prove it is when you're on call. You may or may not be able to make it to that meeting, which means you may or may not be able to actively participate in elections. For a lot of folks, it's too hard, and they just decide, “OK." So, the intention is not to actually disprove that these voters can vote. The intention is to sow chaos, and to dampen their enthusiasm for participation. When your government participates by making it easier for people to question your citizenship, you start to doubt the validity of the leadership you have. That's the problem, because when you doubt the leadership, you're doubting the democracy. You're doubting the system. That's when we see voter suppression working extraordinarily well and very efficiently.

Leah Feiger: That group that you mentioned, True the Vote, they're back. They're back in a big, big way. They have been spending the last year really, really nailing down on all of their Zoom calls with volunteers. They've relaunched their apps for challenging voter rolls. They just quite recently, I think it was in the last month or so, actually launched a new social media network basically in order to report conspiracies. So, these groups are still here. These aren't just random individuals that are doing this. There is an organized effort. How do you fight against such a well-funded organized efforts with direct links to one specific campaign to the Trump campaign. Obviously, there's other groups like them, the Election Integrity Network run by Cleta Mitchell, the former Trump advisor. They're prepared.

Stacey Abrams: I want to come back to something you pointed out earlier, and I think it's important. We can be pleased that the secretary of state and the governor of Georgia did not violate the law and find votes that didn't exist.

Leah Feiger: It's a little bit of a low bar.

Stacey Abrams: It's a very low bar.

Leah Feiger: Congratulations.

Stacey Abrams: Let's point out 49 other governors managed to not do the same thing. So, there's that. But here's why I think it's important for us to understand, those networks that you describe, here in Georgia, Fair Fight, the organization I created, sued True the Vote. But because of state law, because of the weakening of federal law, they were permitted to continue. We did not win our lawsuit, not because we were wrong, but because the laws make it easier for them to do their work of voter suppression. That was suborned by, supported by, and encouraged by the governor of Georgia. So, while we are using Trump as an avatar, the people doing this work on the ground preceded his entry into politics, and will be here after he leaves. So, it is dangerous for us to presume that the defeat of Donald Trump is the defeat of this infrastructure. As you pointed out, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars to game the system on behalf of, in this case, a particular political party. We have to call it out, not as a matter of partisanship, but as a matter of clarity, because we have to understand that no matter which party is attacking our democracy, they are wrong. When you undermine democracy trying to win an election, you are undermining democracy for everyone who lives here, and no one should be permitted to do so.

Leah Feiger: We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back for more with Stacey Abrams and how she thinks the Harris campaign is going.

[Break]

Leah Feiger: Welcome back to WIRED Politics Lab. We're talking with Stacey Abrams about how she thinks the Harris campaign is going. I'm so interested to hear some of your thoughts on the last couple of months and how the Harris campaign has gone. Obviously, early in the campaign, Harris seemed to be winning the internet. She was coconuts tree galore. Waltz was calling Republicans weird, Brett Summer, et cetera. Lately, that has come to a slight end as we are a week out from the election. Makes sense, but it really seems that Trump has been coming out so strong online, hitting the bro vote, doing a lot of long interviews that showcase his personality for better or for worse. A recent Wall Street analysis shows that he's just done more interviews period, whether it's TV, radio, podcast. Why do you think that is? Do you think that the Harris campaign has worked hard enough to close that gap in the final days of the election?

Stacey Abrams: So, let's start off with the reality that you can only be brand new for so long.

Leah Feiger: Yes. For sure.

Stacey Abrams: When that's true. But there's also a question, and you, I think, framed it very properly. Donald Trump has been doing lots and lots of interviews, but he's talking to the same people about the same thing over and over again. So, there's quantity versus the quality. Quantity wise, yes, he may be doing more, but who is he talking to? He has refused to have conversations on CBS. He refused to do 60 Minutes. He has refused to have conversations with anyone who would actually ask him hard questions. So, while he may be doing more, the question is who is he doing it for and who is he talking to? I would say that there are narrow constraints. If you look at the audience that he's reaching out to, it's not exactly an expanded universe of viewers.

Leah Feiger: I hear that. I'm wondering if it actually is that narrow though, right? Trump was just on Joe Rogan who has millions and millions of followers.

Stacey Abrams: Which I think is also perfect, so yes. So, there's the quantity and then there's the quality. When he gets on these shows, no matter who he's talking to, he's saying the same thing. He went on Joe Rogan, and managed to insult a whole range of people. Donald Trump has the challenge of being Donald Trump no matter where he is. So, again, I don't want us to confuse and conflate quantity with quality. Now, to the Harris campaign, she has been doing more. She's been doing more in different ways. She too has been doing podcasts. She's been talking to communities. She's been doing, for example, the Economic Freedom Talk series, where she's been highlighting black business owners and being in conversation. She has been going across this country having big and small events, and I think that's also important, but we are talking about a three-month campaign. We've got one person who's been running for president for more than a decade now, and one person who's been in this campaign for three months. I think it's important that she have the opportunity to build what she needs. Again, I look at quantity versus quality. While quantitatively she may not have done as much, qualitatively, we have gotten much richer information, much more broad-based information. Her CNN Town Hall, the work that she has done, she has been trying to find the places where she can have the broadest conversations with the most number of people who need to hear all of these things in a very contracted and constricted period of time. I think she's done a great job.

Leah Feiger: This is a really tough question, even a tough thing for me as someone in media to ponder. I would love to believe that a Harris interview with CBS or CNN or any of these publications, or these town halls matters way more than an interview on Joe Rogan. For my own job's sake alone, I honestly hope that. Does the American electorate actually care about the quantity versus quality question? There's part of me that's looking at these campaigns, and going, "You have Elon Musk out there tweeting to his over 200 million followers, "Register to vote in Pennsylvania. Come look at me speak at this church in Pennsylvania, this massive rally." You have Trump on Joe Rogan. You have Trump on the NELK Boys, on Aidan Ross, on all of these different podcasts that are appealing to a very specific sector of voters that, to be honest, both Democrats and Republicans would like. So, I'm wondering, does the quality versus quantity question actually matter, or are we in a new era of ground campaign versus internet politics? That is it's something entirely new that we've perhaps not actually seen before in a presidential election.

Stacey Abrams: I think it's all of the above, because we have to remember that we've got basically six cohorts of voters. You've got 18 to 25. You've got 26 to 35. You've got 35 to 50, 50 to 65, 65 to 75, and 75 plus. I'm fairly certain that there are cohorts in there that are not listening to Joe Rogan, couldn't find Joe Rogan if he was standing in front of them.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, we cannot be so seduced by the newness of an avenue of communication that we abandon all of the other people who are listening. So, yes, there are podcasts. You and I both do them. You have a self-selected audience, and so you've got to go to the places where people want to be, and you got to go to the places where people tend to be. You can't elide one focusing on the other. I think what Kamala Harris has done effectively is try to hopscotch the universe, and say, "I'm going to try to put together a pretty good mix of all of the above."

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: I think Donald Trump has been less willing to do so, because he has been more interested in targeting a demographic, a male demographic that he's very content with, that he hopes that he can turn out. He's running a base strategy. So, to your point about new versus old, two ways to run a campaign. You can run a base campaign where you're only focusing on the people you know will support you, and you're trying to boost the number of those people who will show up. So, you know they agree with you. Now, you need them to turn out. Then you've got a persuasion campaign where you're trying to bring in people that you may not have naturally, but you're trying to build a coalition, and also get them to turn out. Donald Trump is running a traditional base campaign. He's doing it with new media, and he's doing it across a number of mediums, but that does not mean that he's doing something brand new. Harris is running a persuasion coalition campaign, where she is trying to reach multiple people in multiple communities, and it's created some tensions, because she has to talk to everyone, because she believes that the way to win is to actually build a new coalition that is not just this base that we presume would vote for her, but is building a new base of voters saying, "I'm going to treat all of you with the respect you are due by coming to meet you where you are." That's not new either, but again, she's using new and old media to do it. So, I think we should not get confused between the difference between the intention and the tools.

Leah Feiger: I absolutely hear that. Obviously though, this is a different environment, right? We have experienced a fracturing of media and social platforms that we have never seen before.

Stacey Abrams: Absolutely.

Leah Feiger: In many ways, to me, it feels like tech platforms have abdicated responsibility in this election cycle.

Stacey Abrams: Yes, absolutely.

Leah Feiger: Elon Musk doesn't just own X. He's actually been using it to spread election conspiracies, and letting other major influencers do the same. How does the Harris campaign deal with that, and what do you make of the role that Musk has played in this election?

Stacey Abrams: So, the podcast I do called Assembly Required, we had Esosa Osa on to talk about disinformation. The reason this matters is that it's not just Elon Musk. It's that Meta and other platforms have weakened their filters. So, Elon Musk has been aggressively and intentionally a disinformation factory.

Leah Feiger: Machine, truly incredible to watch.

Stacey Abrams: He is becoming his own industry of life. So, he deserves his own specific place in ignominy.

Leah Feiger: Fair.

Stacey Abrams: Let's put it that way. We should be angry. We should be concerned, but we should also be aware that while he is the loudest version of this terrible dark star, he's not alone. So, to your point, our obligation is to hold all of these tech platforms accountable. You should not be permitted to weaken the protection that you owe the people. If you are going to hold yourself out as a purveyor of information, you are obligated to ensure that that information at least meet the basic smell test. Unfortunately, we have seen multiple tech platforms abdicate that responsibility. So, while I am more than happy to castigate and hold Elon Musk particularly accountable for taking terrible and making it worse, we also have the responsibility on the other side of this election to evaluate everyone who was willing to take this Wild West situation, and make it worse.

Leah Feiger: I mean, absolutely. Yesterday, we came out with a big article about how militias are organizing on Facebook, and you know what? Facebook is actually auto generating pages for militias. It's messy to say the least. Obviously with the Musk thing, he comes with the benefit of just an absolute ton of cash. That has been also wild to watch about his cash for registration sweepstakes. There's just a lot happening there that I am constantly wondering, "Is the Harris campaign doing enough to counteract, and can they?"

Stacey Abrams: So, again, while we may and should be riled up, worried and engaged, the might of money is not an absolute. I come at that as someone who has had to do the work I do with less money than the folks I'm doing it against.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, it is a lot easier when you've got a lot of money. I would love to have that problem. I'd love to have that. I'd love for that to be my issue.

Leah Feiger: Listeners, if anyone would like to make that Stacey Abrams' problem.

Stacey Abrams: I'm good. I'd be happy to grapple with overly resourced narratives, but that comes back to the beginning of this conversation. Democracy is people. We are going to be bombarded and overwhelmed by misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, add-in AI, and the possibilities are terribly endless. That said, we can push back by holding to what we need and know to be true. So, no, you can't outspend them when you don't have the money, but you can outwork them. You can out infrastructure them. You can build capacity. What we were able to do in Georgia came from a place of having a lot less money than those who wanted it to stay the way it is. We haven't won. We are still in this fight. We are constantly fighting. We are constantly going to court. We are constantly challenging legislation, because winning a single moment does not give you the victory, but it does give you progress. So, what I would say is that we can't give up, because we don't have the money. We have to find our other ways of holding those who would do us harm accountable, and holding those who would do us good up to make them be better at it.

Leah Feiger: Sure. As we've said, the national race is in debt heat. You've run a tight statewide race before in Georgia. From your own experience, how do you imagine what might be going through Kamala Harris' head right now as she tries to win this and make history in the process?

Stacey Abrams: I think she's doing exactly what she needs to do. The most important part of any campaign is showing up. She's coming back to Georgia. She, I think, will be in 24 states. I'm being facetious, but-

Leah Feiger: She's out there.

Stacey Abrams: She's out there. In Georgia, she built an incredible operation. We have more than 200 staff. We have 28 coordinated offices, more than 40,000 volunteers just here in Georgia. I was recently in Pennsylvania campaigning there. I did a Wisconsin event the other day. I was in Arizona. The work is being done, but if I am Kamala Harris, I am focusing on one thing, and that is doing everything I can every single day to remind people about what can be. There's been this, I think, false narrative of, "Well, if you want to do it next, why haven't you done it yet?" To which I would respond, and I think she's articulated this. There was four years of cleanup that had to be done, and four years of planting. What she's saying is, "Now, give me four years of my own to move us forward." Donald Trump has been very clear about what he intends to do to create harm, to exact revenge, and she intends to build. I would much rather have someone who's building, and I think she's going to spend the balance of this week showing people what that building will look like, and what that future will look like. I'd be happier being in her position than anywhere else.

Leah Feiger: Less than a week from now, the polls will be closed. How soon do you think we're going to have a result? If you feel like giving us a little prediction here, what do you think that result will be?

Stacey Abrams: So, I think this is an important point for people to understand. It's going to take a couple of days because of mail-in ballots. This is not 2020 when almost every state was aggressively using mail-in ballots, because of the pandemic, but we still have mail-in ballots. We still have litigation. Republicans just sued in Supreme Court about Pennsylvania's rules. There was a lawsuit in Nevada that just got settled. So in the swing states, it's going to take a minute, and it taking a minute does not mean shenanigans. It means volume. So, that's an important thing to hold.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely.

Stacey Abrams: So, I think it's going to be a few days before we know. It's going to be even longer before we know about Congress, because California will be more than likely the determining factor. They have a lot of people, and it takes a very long time. So, that's another week or so before we know about Congress. With that said, I don't do predictions on elections, because we don't know, but here's what I can say.

Leah Feiger: Fair.

Stacey Abrams: We can make our predictions come true by doing the work in the next seven days to turn out the vote and the voters that we need. So, I tell everyone, "Verify that you have a plan to vote. Make sure you are volunteering, especially to help make certain that our elections are fair and safe and accessible. If you have time, sign up to get that done." Fairfight.com/LFGB is a great place to go if you want to volunteer. We have to protect those election workers who are going to be under intense and immense pressure. So, thank an election worker. When you go in to cast your ballot, say thank you to that person for what they are doing. Then we have to practice patience, because that patience is what will get us to the next stage of what will be, I think, a protracted slog simply because some folks are not going to be happy. The question is, "Are they going to follow the rule of law to express that concern, or are they going to try to take the law into their own hands?" My deep and abiding hope is that our democracy holds, our values hold, and we can get good done.

Leah Feiger: Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a great chat, and I really appreciate you coming on.

Stacey Abrams: Leah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Leah Feiger: Thanks for listening to WIRED Politics Lab. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow the show, and give us five stars. We also have a newsletter, which Makena Kelly writes each week. The link to the newsletter and the WIRED reporting we mentioned today are in the show notes. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, please, please write to politicslab@WIRED.com. That's politicslab@WIRED.com. We're so excited to hear from you. WIRED Politics Lab is produced by Jake Harper. Pran Bandi is our studio engineer. Amar Lal mixed this episode. Steven Valentino is our executive producer. Chris Bannon is global head of audio at Conde Nast, and I'm your host, Leah Feiger. We'll be back in your feeds with a new episode next week. Thanks for listening.